On Power

On Free-Market Competition

"[What are] getting a lot of investment by government and corporations are "solutions" that aren't really working. They are the types of things that leave existing systems intact. So you can still have agribusiness with bio-fuel. You can still have the auto industry with technologies that might work (might not) like building hybrid cars. But, in the meantime, the Ford Fiesta they sell in the U.K. gets 88 miles to the gallon. You know they could sell it here, but they don't because it's more profitable to sell cars that get lower gas mileage. What we're waiting for isn't the technology. We're waiting for them to figure out how to make it more profitable....

"One of the things that I'm grappling with is that there are aspects of markets that work. So I think that we can take those things and use what works, but there's a lot of restructuring of the state that needs to happen and disentangling the state from corporate finance interests. And how do you do that without a really major upheaval?"

(Underdome Interview)

On Community Advocacy

"In terms of the jobs and what the stimulus package can do, again, you’re looking at this situation where it's top down, and I think that's really challenging to carry out effectively and for it to make meaningful changes that last. And there are all kinds of unintended things that are happening with the weatherization money. It is creating jobs, which is good, I think. And they are jobs that can't be outsourced. But one of the things that's happening ... is that labor unions are really pissed off about how the money’s getting spent, because a lot of the agencies that are getting the money aren't unionized.

"And so now, states are having them back up and do new kinds of agreements and it's getting really complicated for people to access the funds and they're having to do all this extra documentation and if you’re a small business, you can't afford to figure out how to do all that stuff, or have the time to do it, because the time you're doing that, you're not doing your work. If you don't have all that—and there's a certain kind of cultural capital you have to have to know how to get in there—if you are from the south Bronx or west Oakland, and you don't have a college education, and you don't have a lot of contacts, it's much more challenging. And the way that it seems to me like it's taking shape is that the terrain can be navigated, but organized labor, people that are doing training, and people that are doing energy audits, they need to be working together and that's sort of fallen through the cracks, it seems."

(Underdome Interview)

On Government Initiated Motivation

"I think the role of government is really important. But of course it's not everything, because it can't be. …But one of the things that the German government has done which is really successful, is they have this thing called the Feed-In Tariff, for subsidizing people installing solar panels. It's really simple, the way it works is: if you want to put solar panels on your roof you install them, you pay for it up front. … And you sell that power to the utility....So what this has done is, it allows people to pay off their solar panels in seven to eight years, and then they get 12 or 13 years of just profit from it.... So now one in every hundred Germans has solar panels and it's really effective. So that's facilitated by government, but it's not government-funded. But it is funded with ratepayers’ money, so I guess you could call it a public-private partnership or something, but it's the type of thing that it works, so why not do it?...

"But yes, I think the role of government is really crucial, and I mean not just in making these kinds of environmentally-sane decisions but of course also the decisions that they make that are really destructive, the way that they subsidize and encourage and foster with research and all kinds of other supports [things like] industrial farming and fossil fuels, oil exploration, and all that....

"So to separate those things is a tremendous undertaking that needs to be done-- and that's the thing, ultimately in the research that I've done-- where I'm at right now is that the problems and barriers we have are not technological. They're not scientific. We know what's wrong. We know how to fix it. We basically have what we need. It’s not that technologies can't be improved, of course they can. But the reason that we're still in this downward spiral is political. And everyone says that.

"That's where you get to: you have to generate the public will. Everybody says it's a lack of political will. And that's just the way of kind of writing it off. I think it's maybe more useful to talk about it in terms of a lack of public will. And so how do we generate public will?"

(Underdome Interview)

On Territory

On Lifestyle

On Reduce Consumption

"What Freiburg is useful for---and this is really basic---is just to say that to use 1/65 of the energy that we use in our buildings doesn't mean that we have to live in a building made of used tires and mud in the middle of nowhere with the bath water going through the indoor garden, with the electricity coming from batteries and solar panels or whatever. A lot of people are just like, 'Oh God. I'm not living in an Earthship.' And I don't want to live in an Earthship. So it's just to show that there are these places that are totally normal. They're not culturally alienating whatsoever.

"When I went into the apartment I rented [in Freiburg], it was cold. It was snowing; it was below freezing outside. It was like kind of chilly when I got there because nobody had been staying there. So I went to the radiator, and I just turned it up all the way. I was going out for the day to interview people, and I was like, “I want just to be warm when I get back.” I never do that kind of stuff, but I was like, “I don't care.” When I came home, it was cold. And I was like, “What?” So I turned it up a little bit, and then I turned it up all the way before I went to bed because I had been so miserable the night before. I woke up in the morning, and I felt really good. It was perfect, and I was like “Okay, this is wonderful, but you do need the heat.” So I went over and touched the radiator, and it was totally cold still. So then I was like, “Okay, it feels really comfortable, I'm just going to turn it off, and I'm not going turn it on for the rest of the time unless it gets really unbearable.” And I didn't turn it on the rest of the time, and the house was like 71, 72 the whole time because its designed to be that way. So it’s just like “Okay, you can do this. It's normal. It doesn't feel weird. It's not inconvenient.” I think that’s what you can take away. 

"You get the whole question of class and access to the resources and technology, and that's the issue because it's expensive to build a new building. Something like only 1% of all buildings each year are new or something like that. So the real question is weatherization or retrofitting…(Underdome Interview)
 

On Green Consumerism

"You can't solve the problems of mass production and mass consumption with more mass production and mass consumption."

" A lot of people say, "All right, well, what do you do? Give me the answer. Give me the program." Real social change doesn't work like that. That's how consumption works: You go to the store, and you buy this, and you take it home, and you use it. …The thing with the way that we consume and the way that we identify with commodities right now is very much-- and this is what I'm arguing in Gone Tomorrow--is that it's learned behavior. And there's something hopeful about that, because it means it can be unlearned.

"…honestly I didn't look at greenwashing, per se. I looked at industry, and it ended up being about greenwashing, about industries that are presenting themselves as viable solutions. 'We're doing this thing that's green, but it's not really green, but we have this ad campaign.'

"Even the latest issue of The Nation magazine has “Ten Things to Do to Cut Your Greenhouse Gas Emissions.” I don't know if you guys have seen that, but it's the same list of things that has been printed in every rag in every town for the last 10 years. It's all individualistic: turn your lights off, recycle and all that stuff. If we allow that to continue to be the frame, then it just reinforces the consumer, the transactional quality of how we perceive of our impact on the environment.

"People bringing their tote bags to the store really doesn't make that big of a difference environmentally, but the way that it functions to create new norms when you see that is useful. Recycling works in a similar way: it brings out a consciousness of what you throw away, while recycling often isn't that useful in terms of environmental well-being."

(Underdome Interview)

On Nuclear Families

"There is one of the criticism of Vauban: Everybody has kids because it's really kid-friendly. There are all these parks and there are hardly any cars. The kids just run around all over the place… some of the people I interviewed were just like, 'It drives me nuts,' and they have kids. It's like, 'Oh my God. It's just too crazy. All summer it's kids screaming, running around.' " 

(Underdome Interview)

On Communal Living

"So you build a multifamily house, a building, and you have ten families that go in together. And instead of hiring a developer they directly hire an architect. And they work with the architect through the whole process of design and construction and finishing, and they begin paying their mortgage essentially right away. ... And in doing it this way it cuts the cost down a lot. It allows for them to have really well-designed buildings because they have good architects...  And it helps to offset some of the higher expenses for the energy efficient materials and construction methods and all that.

"It's this community. I mean, five thousand people: not everybody knows each other, but certainly the people that live near each other know each other. And essentially instead of backyards they have these parks, and everybody interacts with each other. Some people told me, “I need somebody to watch my kids: My neighbor does it, or I do it for her.” There's a lot of that kind of sharing of domestic labor and other resources."

(Underdome Interview)

On Risk

On Precautionary Development

"Well who sets the true cost? Where does it start? Where does it stop? I like the idea. I think it's an important and useful concept. But how do you actually do that? If you actually did that the economy would crash. We wouldn't be able to afford to buy anything. Realistically that isn't going to work. So, how do we actually deal with what the idea of true cost pricing is pointing at? Which is, how do we not destroy nature?  Let's just do that."

(Underdome Interview)

Background

Heather Rogers is a journalist and author. She has written for the New York Times Magazine, Mother Jones,and The Nation. Her first book, Gone Tomorrow: The Hidden Life of Garbage, traces the history and politics of household rubbish in the United States. The book received the Editor’s Choice distinction from the New York Times Book Review, and Non-Fiction Choice from theGuardian (UK). Her documentary film, also titled Gone Tomorrow, screened in festivals around the globe. Green Gone Wrong: How Our Economy Is Undermining the Environmental Revolution, her latest book, takes a critical, on-the-ground look at popular market-based solutions to ecological destruction. Rogers has spoken internationally on the environmental effects of mass consumption and is a senior fellow at the progressive US think tank Demos. She currently lives in Brooklyn, New York.

- heatherrogers.info

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